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X Factor "Heroes"

category international | miscellaneous | opinion/analysis author Dé Luain Nollaig 15, 2008 12:54author by éirígí PRO Report this post to the editors

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Related Link: http://www.eirigi.org


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author by Nocturnalpublication date Máirt Noll 16, 2008 01:32author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Class piece of work. The X Factor was bad enough before it started being used to justify Brit/US wars.

author by Scepticpublication date Máirt Noll 16, 2008 12:22author address author phone Report this post to the editors

But éirígí are hardly a pacifist organisation. They justify the Provisional IRA violence. You can put together some negative clips about the US or UK armed forces to make them look bad. However as I understand it your problem is not with violence, war and killing etc but only when it’s undertaken by people you dislike. Your subtext is that killing, maiming and bombing is OK so long as it’s done in the cause of Irish unity or as a revenge for something by Irish Republicans or ETA or some such.

author by LPpublication date Máirt Noll 16, 2008 14:48author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Republicans are/were relatively honest about their reasons for using violence, and weren't exactly picking a fight they expected to win easily by overwhelming military superiority. The US and UK governments are, and have been for a long time, disgustingly hypocritical about their motives for either directly causing (with their own armed forces or policies e.g. sanctions regimes and embargoes) or enabling (by their client-states and allies) the deaths of tens of millions, and their targets are always those weaker than themselves. When these motives are so effectively obscured by insidious and relentless propaganda programs, it's good to see those programs being highlighted and subverted.

Related Link: http://www.chomsky.info/debates/19671215.htm
author by Henripublication date Máirt Noll 16, 2008 17:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Sceptic said: "But éirígí are hardly a pacifist organisation."

They never claimed to be. Are you? How many pacifist organisations are out there that you know of?

Sceptic: "Your subtext is that killing, maiming and bombing is OK so long as it’s done in the cause of Irish unity or as a revenge for something by Irish Republicans or ETA or some such."

Its straightforward sceptic. There is no subtext. These british soldiers that x factor have disgustingly tried to portray as heroes are nothing of the sort. Its fairly simple really.

X Factor tried to use their show for British military propaganda purposes. éirigi have countered it. Fair play to them. Good work.

author by pucapublication date Máirt Noll 16, 2008 19:20author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Fair play to eirigi for putting this together. Its really important to challenge the way positive messages about the military are disseminated. Its a recruitment tactic and the more this stuff is dismantled and undermined the better the chance of persuading kids that they have no future in any military.

That said I take sceptics point, that the provos weren't hypocritcal about their killings is absolute sheeite. So the Americans and brits kill for freedom and the IRA (who killed plenty of kids over 30 years) killed for what exactly? Provos also engaged in torture for which people are quick to criticise the US and brits, rightly so, but lets not be hypocrites like, well, the brits and americans. The armed struggle was counter productive for many years and lots and lots of people died for nothing, many of them at the hands of republicans.

author by francis hughespublication date Máirt Noll 16, 2008 22:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Think a few of yis are wandering off the point folks. Imperialist, capitalist violence and very importantly its powerful spin doctors and media tycoon allies cannot and should not be ever put on the same level as any country, class, group defending themselves against a military, economically and politically superior. The point of this video is to show that the establishment are the ones that can portray their violence as legitimate. I know im following the troll of the path but To the person who claims that IRAs actions achieved nothing. It got the northern nationalists off their knees, defended them and put pressure on Brit government to negotiate. Armed action by national liberation movements is a tactic more than a policy. When your fightin the biggest and most evil empire in the world your gonna reach a stalemate at some stage. Anyway Brits out of Ireland, Iraq, Afghanistan.

author by fitzpublication date Céad Noll 17, 2008 00:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I uploaded a .flv version of this to youtube and it was removed for being "inappropriate" then when i tried upload it again it automatically denied it saying the same thing - so i tried upload the mpg version and got the message " Rejected (terms of use violation) " youtube are censoring a lot of videos and freezing, setting back the views on others.

author by Conor. M - Think Tank, Swordspublication date Céad Noll 17, 2008 02:11author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Whats going on, for some bizarre reason, I haven't seen this footage on Fox OR Sky news.... that's weird!

author by why so cynical?publication date Céad Noll 17, 2008 11:23author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Peter; who are you? who do you represent? is it the people of Afghanistan? the people of Iraq? Or just the world-wide anti-war movement?
I'm just curious because you seem to speak with some authority on who can and who can't be opposed to the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.
eirigi seem to have been very clear in this video about what they stand for: ending the occupations of Iraq, Afghanistan and, yes, Ireland.
Why do you seek to draw inferences when none are needed? eirigi have made their stance clear, why don't you? You are attacking the video because you are anti-republican, simple really.
However, it is quite sad that you are opposed to highlighting the victims of British imperialism in Ireland alongside the victims of British imperialism in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Is it because you are ashamed of the fact that the organisation to which you belong never has done and never will do anything about British injustice in your own country?
Or are you just nervous because eirigi is moving into 'your' territory.

author by Sean Macpublication date Céad Noll 17, 2008 14:24author address author phone Report this post to the editors

While I welcome the video and support its unequivocal message that the violent occupations of these countries must cease immediately, I do believe that the only morally permissable angle from which to approach this issue from is that of a rejection of all forms of violence to achieve any purpose whatsoever...in other words a pacifist position...I used to believe in the inherent righteousness of the IRA's violence but have sense grown to see that righteous violence is still what it is-violence and one person harming another using the same means of violent activity whatever the motivation still evokes a squeamish human reaction from those who witness it and haven't loss all ability to empathise with fellow humans...such a pacifist viewpoint wouldn't sit well with everyone who believes that survival justifies the harming of other human beings and some may think it unrealistic and an elitist mentality...but in reality pacifism, coupled with non-violent resistance is more revolutionary than all political creeds put together...and funny enough it is Jesus Christ who most perfectly has espoused this in human history!!

Related Link: http://www.centerforchristiannonviolence.org
author by Séamuspublication date Céad Noll 17, 2008 15:33author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I don't think Hadden has even watched the video. Nothing can be allowed to get in the way of his economist "socialism" and the blessed gospel of bread and butter afterall.

But how dare anyone take a consistent stand against imperialism?! Don't they understand that they're just creating a wedge with those sections of the working class who actually like imperialism, racism and fascism?!

author by Dublin Socialist Republicanpublication date Céad Noll 17, 2008 16:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Peter,
Your suggestion that the eirigi video is intented to stoke up sectarian tensions is laughable. You and your party (along with your spoiled twins in the SWP) represent a brand of socialism that is based upon nothing but convoluted theory, elitism and cowardice.

While you talk the talk about revolution and anti-imperialism you dare not walk the walk. Only last month the British Army paraded its troops - fresh from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan - through the streets of Belfast. Where were the anti-imperialist vangaurd of the SP/SWP? At home writing e-mails about imperialism or possibly in the city centre cheering on the working class heroes.

You remind me of those alleged leftist who were only too quick to take to the streets of Dublin in support of the struggle against the Contra's in Nicaragua or the Apartheid regime in South Africa. in fact the further away the struggle was the more passionate they became and the faster their crocidile tears flowed.

The facts in Ireland are very simple. It is Britain's oldest colonial conquest . That occupation was challenged to the point of near-total victory in 1921. The country was partitioned - under the threat of total war - into two states. The southern state was from its foundation a counter-revolutionary entity which ruthlessly crushed the real revolutionary potential of that time (including the Munster Soviets). The northern state was no less ruthless in surpressing dissent. For the last 80 years the partition of Ireland has been maintained through state violence or the threat of state violence by the British. At various times during this period republicans, nationalists and true socialist have taken up arms to challenge that violence and by extension all imperialist violence. On each occassion the trend of safe trendy leftism that you represent was nowhere to be seen.

Your talk of uniting the working classes in Ireland (particularly in the six counties) is wishful thinking designed to get you off the hook of real struggle. While every socialist would dearly love to see all working people unite in opposition to imperialism and exploitation it just aint going to happen.

The reality is that among the working class of Ireland there lurks deeply engrained sectarianism, racism and facistic tendancies. The highest concentration of such trends is to be found among the 'unionist' population in the six north-eastern counties. Your talk of uniting these people with the very people that the regard as sub-humna (catholics) is based upon nothing other than text-book theory.

It was from similar pools of facistst that Hitler built. Would you suggest that socialists and communists were wrong to challenge these working class heroes? Should they instead have attempted to befriend and unite with them?

Facisim needs to be faced down wherever it comes from - working class or not.

This is the only position for true socialists to take.

It is not a position, however, that would appeal to those who fundametally regard partition and the British occupation as legitimate - which in the case of your party might partially explain your hostility to eirigi and those other socialists who challenge imperialism at home as well as in far off distant lands.

The long and the short of it is that you are at best a unionist pretending to be an anti-imperalist socialist or at worst a coward who cant follow his analysis to its logical conclusion.

author by Ciaron - Catholic Worker/Ploughshares (pacifist)publication date Céad Noll 17, 2008 21:02author address author phone Report this post to the editors

I couldn't believe the original vid when it came on in a pub in Manooth the other night. A Christmas co-option of the "We are the World" genre to suppot the war effort!

While doing our weekly Monday anti-war vigil at the GPO I had a chat to two young women from L.A. who had just done the Kilmanham jail tour and recently joined the U.S. military. It made me sad to think that there was no anti-war culture out there standing in the way of these two becoming cannon fodder. So it was a lift to see this culturejamming effort by Eirigi and I have sent it around my email list to friendsi in Eng/Scotland, U.S. and OZ.

Today I attended a reading of Joshua Casteel's play "Returns" at the Abbey Theatre. Joshua went into West Point at 17, he deployed to Iraq at 23 and did over 100 interrogations at Abu Ghraib before turning against the war. On his return to the U.S. he got involved with the Catholic Worker and Iraq Veterans Against the War www.ivaw.org and has been arrested a number of times in nonviolent resistance.

On the theme of "heroes/heroism", we experienced a very timid anti-war movement in the West in 03 before it largely and quickly evaporated. It could be argued that the young American women and men transiting through Shannon on a daily basis were willing to risk their arms, legs, sanity and lives prosecuting the war. Those who marched on F15 03 were willing to risk very little and many made haste to put as much distance a quicly as possible between themselves and those who took NVDA risks with their liberty at Shannon and Raytheon and with heir lives nonviolently deploying t the war zone.

This clip should not make us snugger in the comfort zone that at least we're not soldiers but challenge us to match the courage and solidarity of soldiers in nonviolent resistance to ongoing Irish complicity in this US/UK war on Iraq and Afghanistan.

The civil anti-war movement is in such sad shape in the West (it has not deployed to Shannon in numbers for example since Joshua Casteel and two other vets accompanied us on Halween 06) that more opposition with traction is coming out of the U.S.U.K. military www.couragetoresist.org military families of the dead (Rose gentle, Reg Keyes, Cindy Sheehan and veterans than out of any civilian peace movement.

Thanx again for the eirigi vid lifted the spirits
Find a solider in the brig for resisting the war (on the following website and send'em a postcard!)

Related Link: http://www.couragetoresist.org
author by LPpublication date Déar Noll 18, 2008 10:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Well said, Ciaron. Too much protest in Ireland is half-hearted.

author by Belfast workerpublication date Déar Noll 18, 2008 12:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

The Eirigi video is good in that it exposes the cynical way that a tabloid type TV programme has used war to make money from gullible viewers voting for mediocre singers.

However the videos portrayal of British soldiers is in itself cyncical and one sided. I oppose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I don't believe that all British or US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are warmongers, torturers or even supporters of these imperialist wars. That view, promoted by this video is crude and ignores the reality that the majority of US soldiers are opposed to the US occupation of Iraq. We know this because it has been reported in polls. Is this the same for British soldiers, I don't know, I haven't seen polls about their views. Are the views of the British soldiers likely to be very different to those of the US? Possibly but I wouldn't say there would be massive differences.

Were this video degenerates to outright lies is in relation to Northern Ireland. It shows British soldiers engaged in assaults on civilians and tells us of some of the children that were murdered by the British Army. These images are real, the chidlren were murdered. But unlike with the images shown of Iraq, the film footage and the deaths used in the video from Northern Ireland happened along time ago. Someone could watch this video from another part of the world and be left with the impression that there are still British soldiers patrolling the streets of Northern Ireland. That British soldiers are still engaged in conflict with civilians. That is not the case. The Eirigi video perpetrates a lie.

There are 5,000 British soldiers in Northern Ireland. None of these soldiers are involved in anyway in the sitituation in the North. They are all confined to barracks and they have no role in everyday life. You will see more soldiers on the streets of the Republic than you will in Northern Ireland.

The British Army should never have been in Northern Ireland. They are responsible for the murders of children and they should be condemned for this and everything else they carried out. Are they heroes, most deffinitely not. Are they responsible for what happened in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan, no, the British and US imperialists are responsible,

Eirigi, however have a sectarian one sided view of things on this island. Their "heroes" in the IRA carried out plenty of murders and torture of innocent people as well. The Shankill Road bomb in a furniture store. No warning. Colm Nicholl 7 months old murdered by the IRA in this bomb. Tracey Munn 2 year old, murdered by the IRA in this bomb.

Friday 21 st July 1972. The IRA detonated 20 no warning bombs in the space of one hour in Belfast City Centre. Stephen Parker 14 year old boy, murdered by one of these IRA bombs. For your information Ciaron Ploughshares...Stephen Parker's father was a peace campaigner just like you.

Others who died that day included four workers, trade unionists who worked for Ulsterbus,
Robert Gibson 45 yrs father of 5 children Ulsterbus driver, William Kenneth Crothers 15 yrs of age Ulsterbus worker, William Irvine 18 yrs Ulsterbus worker, Thomas Killops 39 yrs Ulsterbus worker.

These are just a few examples of how the IRA murdered children and also trade unionist and workers. Also on Bloody Friday the IRA murdered Margaret O'Hare 37 yrs mother of seven children, who was a catholic. Thats what your "heroes" did to Irish working class people!

Eirigi just another in along line of sectarian parties in Ireland, no different at the end of the day than Sinn Fein or the DUP, except they pretend to be socialists. What type of socialist advocates the murder of children and trade unionists. Sorry correction, I should have said only if that child or trade unionist happens to be a Protestant!

author by Dublin Socialist Republicanpublication date Déar Noll 18, 2008 17:44author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Belfast Worker,

You state that 'There are 5,000 British soldiers in Northern Ireland. None of these soldiers are involved in anyway in the sitituation in the North.'

Are you for real?

What exactly do you think they are doing there?

The fact that they are largely confined to barracks does not mean that they are not 'involved in anyway'. Thats like saying that the the British Army (when largely confined to barracks) in Basra are not 'involved in anyway' in the situation in Iraq. The 5,000 British troops based in the occupied territories are part and parcel of the British occupation and the usurption of Irish democracy that it represents.

The language in your comment betrays your real view of the British occupation.

I have no problem saying that I am an Irish socialist republican - that means I want to see Ireland free from British imperialism and capitalist exploitation).

Will you admit that you are a unionist socialist and what that means to you?

And dont try the usual Good Friday Agreement crap. Do you support the British occupation or the 'Union with the United Kingdom' if that phrase sits a bit easier with you.

author by Belfast Workerpublication date Déar Noll 18, 2008 18:50author address author phone Report this post to the editors

DSR you have chosen to ignore the majority of what I said. Maybe you should address your remarks to what I really said and not to what you wish I had said.

I am not a unionist. I support the unconditinal withdrawal of all British troops from Northern Ireland. I support the socialist reunification of Ireland. I am not a republican. I am a socialist, I don't support parties or terrorist organisations, republican or loyalist who actions are sectarian and anti-working class. I don't support SF who are pro-capitalist. I don't support dissident republican groups who are right wing sectarian bigots who lust for the return to the failed tactic of armed struggle, which has been rejected by the overwhelming majority of working class people both North and South.

British troops do not patrol the streets of the North. British troops do not take part in any activities at all in the North. The Eirigi vid attempts to pretend that they are out everyday on the streets and attacking catholic youth etc. If DSR you have evidence to the contrary please supply it.

author by Michael - Human Leaguepublication date Domh Noll 21, 2008 03:18author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Bad enough we have 'The Trolly Dollies' spending Irish Money up the North instead if spending Irish Money In The 26 Counties without us having to deal
with ,i assume , People up the North Still going on about the aftermath of the Turf War, R.I.P.
I Spent years listening to the 'nordies' and quite honestly the accent would not appeal to me at all.
From what i can gather there seems to be some Northern Arrogance still alive and well ,but no matter, we wont be getting involved in a situation wherby
the people are at each others throats for their own reasons ,some genuine some not , as when Jack Lynch Blew the opportunity by not acting in the
Interests of the 32 counties ,and the carnage that stains our History Books to this Day, i can only opt out and Wish You All Well up North , and without
Appearing Sarcastic to anyone please get it sorted .

My Platonic Lady Friend earns her living working in Dunnes Stores .

My Platonic Lady Friends FRIEND works in Dunnes Stores and She Doe's Her Main Weekly Shopping ,In Tesco Ireland .Some neck to do the 'earning
here' and the 'shopping there' ,
See opener above . Its the same difference

author by Paddy Murphypublication date Domh Noll 21, 2008 18:40author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Dublin Socialist Republican,
I largely agree with the Belfast worker. I come from a 'republican' area where the I.R.A are the heroes and the British troops are murderers. DSR, you are clearly far too righteous and one-sided. Do you, or have you ever lived here?
You are ignoring half of the story, and No, I never see British troops on the streets of Belfast. Your another angry 'republican'. With that, I oppose the occupation of my country and have seen a fair share of violence. It is a good video, except when you show clips from the troubles without stating it is outdated coverage.

PEACE to all workers. R.I.P all innocent murdered by all armies including the I.R.A

author by francis hughespublication date Domh Noll 21, 2008 21:37author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Just for the record, of course some particular actions of the IRA were regretable, BUT me and a lot of Irish people would think of members of the IRA down through the years as heroes. They defended people from bein burnt out of their houses by loyalist/b special gangs, took on drug dealers in community, struck with operations to the economic heart of the Brit establishment. Now u cant pigeon hole me with your anti-republican slander. I dont think havin just a guerilla army can liberate a country or a class (it does help sometimes in some countries) but I think of anyone that stands up to imperialism and fascism as a hero. Whether it be a IRA volunteer shootin/bombin soldiers, or a community worker workin in his locality,a socialist or anarchist campaigning in their trade union. We have much more in common than u think. we are all volunteers, we do not get paid for our activism. Sorry for getting off the point but it was these micro left imperialist apologists that got off ot first. Lets unite instead of bickering.

author by Scepticpublication date Luan Noll 22, 2008 16:49author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"Just for the record, of course some particular actions of the IRA were regrettable, BUT me and a lot of Irish people would think of members of the IRA down through the years as heroes." - Francis Hughes

This is in fact a weak justification and a weasely expression of regret. Because you think and "a lot" (not a majority mind) of other people may regard the IRA as heroes does not give one iota of legitimacy to the IRA campaign or still less relieve the IRA and its supporters from the moral turpitude attaching to them for their numerous homicidal atrocities as well as the armed robberies and kidnappings carried out to finance the whole thing. You expect us to accept that IRA atrocities are to be “regretted” while almost all the actions of the legitimate armed forces of the US, UK and others are “imperialist” or “terrorist” “atrocities”. At the same time the lawfully established Irish Army is delegitimized by you because it does not operate outside the jurisdiction of the Irish Republic expect by mandate. I think you have things the wrong way around, big time.

The problem with militant Irish Republicanism is that it causes people to become unmoored not just from civilized norms but also from reality in favour of a mythical cult of purity and terrorism. Francis Hughes is a classic example of attempting to defend the indefensible.

author by Henripublication date Luan Noll 22, 2008 20:00author address author phone Report this post to the editors

Are you a pacifist sceptic?

author by Scepticpublication date Máirt Noll 23, 2008 11:28author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In reply to "Henri" I am not a pacifist and one does not have to be to reject the Provos and their fellow travellers. Only this week the remains of a 21 year old working class catholic Belfast man were buried his body having being dumped in the Wicklow Mountains in 1981. I don’t know what Danny McIlhone did to get up the noses of his local Provo hard men. But I do know that he did not deserve to be abducted, tortured, shot and dumped for over 20 years. The people who did this are no “working class heroes” and the ideology that excuses this type of thing is a pernicious evil. These are the type of heroes that working class men like Danny McIlhone could well do without. The real heroes were those who denounced the Provos often paying with their lives for doing so.

author by annraoipublication date Máirt Noll 23, 2008 12:52author address author phone Report this post to the editors

It was very sad what happened to him, but it has to be remembered that he was an informer- a tool of British intelligence and therefore a party to the conflict. His information was used to target people for killing by loyalist assassins. Do you think the "hard men" of the security services who recruited him and then abandoned him share none of the blame for his demise?

Do you really believe that all informers who have been killed over the years were "murdered". Many of the people who have buildings named after them in this state were involved in the execution of the informers. Will you be protesting outside Collins Barracks Museum over Christmas?

author by Sceptic2publication date Máirt Noll 23, 2008 13:31author address author phone Report this post to the editors

In what court was Danny McI convicted of 'informing'? Did he have a defence atorney? Was he tortured??? Is, perhaps, his confession under torture the only 'evidence' against him? It is quite something when people come on this site to justify his murder and disappearance, while making accusatins without offering the slightest shred of evidence. How morally backward can you get.
Now, imagine the howls from the provo fellow travellers when the British army shot their operatives without a trial. Remember their protests when internees where hooded and tortured. One law foreveryone else, it appears, another for the hero provos. It is a heroism we could all do without - and one which, for that matter, the majority of the Irish people have consistently opposed. It is some liberation philosophy that asserts that an armed minority is entitled to torture and execute Irish people without anything resembling a normal trial - even when the majority of the people it purports to liberate are completely opposed to it.
This is a moraly bankrupt philosophty that belongs in the dark ages.

author by Scepticpublication date Máirt Noll 23, 2008 15:41author address author phone Report this post to the editors

These victims of the Irish Republican cult are assassinated twice over. Once physically and then posthumously they are defamed as informers or some such. It was the same with Mrs. McConville who was said to have abandoned her children and run off with a British soldier when all the time they knew her body was dumped on a Louth beach. Similarly Tom Oliver was denounced as an” informer” after his murder when he as a good citizen reported the presence of an arms dump on his land to the Gárdai. Lately there is a tendency to say that Ambassador Ewart Biggs was responsible for the Dublin bombs when in fact he was a Counsellor at the Paris Embassy in 1974 and was not posted to Dublin until 1976 when he and his secretary were killed by the IRA in Sandyford. Not only was he not a bomber he was in fact extraordinarily open minded and sympathetic towards Ireland. If they cannot think of a reason for killing someone they will invent one. Many so called informers in fact did no more than not show enough respect to the local IRA hard man.

Nothing does more to call into question the whole legitimacy of the 1916 period than the Shinners trying to justify their own campaign by reference to it. That is why 1916 was not commemorated during the Provo campaign. It causes historical revisionism. If 1916 begat the Provos it does not validate the Provos – it invalidates at least to an extent 1916.

author by Ciaron - Catholic Worker/ Ploughsharespublication date Máirt Noll 23, 2008 18:01author address author phone Report this post to the editors

This thread rewound 30 years and downsized to geocentric preoccupation pretty quickly.

Seems like few people writiing on it wish to address the wars right here/ right now on the people of Iraq and Afghanistan that Ireand is complict with north and south.

I thnk we're at a stage where we can see more "courageous" opposition and (career) risktaking consistently coming out of sections of the British military than the British and Irish left.

There was no Irish "anti-war"politician in 03, or now, who sacrifced anything (like Robin Cook) to oppose this war. Many of them use the war to build their profile and milk it for what it was worth. The war lost its media sex appeal (if nothing of its intensity) some time ago and you hear little from them. The Greens going the whole hog and selling out promptly when offered (well you can't call it political power) the role of decorative ornament in government.

Meanwhile some British and U.S. soldiers have gone to jail for refusing deployment or redeployment (to a war the new U.S. president describes as "stupid" and the head of the C of E describes as "wrong"), some officers have resigned their commisions. Where was the equivalent level of courage, heoics, risk taking by the left or the self appointed leadership of the civilian anti-war movement in Ireland or Britain (this is point is relevant to the thread as the music video is themed heroes).

Heroism or courage is significant as without not many of your other good qualities are going to get an airing. You don't want to make the same mistake as George Bush Jr. who described suicide bombers as "cowards". They might be a lot of things but self evidently that's one thang they ain't!

Could be a titch more cowardly to take off from your aircraft carrier fly over a land with no air defences and bomb the fuck out of a wedding party. At least with suicide bombers they're not going to reoffend, the flight bomber jocks are back to base without ever seeing their civilian victims beyond a blip on a screen. The grunts, squadies and diggers on the ground would have courage and after a while one feels more in common with them than the lefties, NGO's and pontificaters who marched in 03 and then went home, stayed home abandoning Iraqis and Afghanis and those who reisted the war military and NVDA Finding other ambulances to chase to build their profile, sell their paper or recruit etc....seriousl engaging Irish complicity in the war was never the priority.

The social democrats of the British Labor Party are willing to support regular indiscriminate NATO aerial bombarment of civilian populations right here right now in the present. Basically following American orders to pursue these unwinnable wars (some of these people are ex-members of the Commnist Party -Reid, Straw et al - many of them were former CND members etc). So yes everyone has a past...Howard Zinn bombed the fuck out of Dresden, doesn't mean he hasn't go interesting obsevations about the present U.S. wars!

Once again thanxfor the culture jamming clip, it was very depressing to see the origunal iin a pub recently

author by Scepticpublication date Déar Noll 25, 2008 10:29author address author phone Report this post to the editors

and where do you stand Ciaron on the issue of IRA violence? Is your indignation reserved for the US and UK forces only while passing over in silence war making by unofficial organizations? Moreover do you concede that some wars are necessary? To liberate France from the Nazis the US and UK forces with others had to invade France and defeat the German forces fro instance. It was also necessary to liberate Singapore as when the British forces were defeated there in 1942 the Japanese occupiers set about massacring the Chinese population. Up to 50,000 were killed during the occupation and the same number again would have been if the occupation had lasted another three years.

author by bored with xmaspublication date Déar Noll 25, 2008 11:05author address author phone Report this post to the editors

"and where do you stand Ciaron on the issue of IRA violence?"

he's had a consistent stand on this - he's a pacifist.
me thinks you know that and you're just stirring up shit on a christmas afternoon.

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